James 2

[Colin]

1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;

3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:

4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Colin]

6 ...Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

Even 2000 years ago, the rich controlling the poor through threats and unrighteous lawsuits was a major source of tension. And here again is a mouthpiece of God saying that is evil.

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Here is the most loved and most hated part of the book of James, and by far the biggest thing James is known for, far more so than being the brother of Christ. He is hated for saying "faith without works is dead." Whilst Martin Luther created a lovely church out of his literary readings of the Bible, he couldn't reconcile this one thing. His church involved "sola fide," the idea that you are saved solely because of your belief in Christ, whether or not you ever make any attempt to keep His commandments. This is of course oversimplified, and I wish anyone reading this will spend a few hours deciding for themselves. But it was enough that Luther declared the James was not an authentic work--that it should be thrown away and not included in the Bible!

Why? ALL churches believe that we are saved solely by God's grace and that our actions themselves don't save us. But many churches have recently gone a step further--a mile further--to say basically that God does not factor in our works, and therefore keeping the commandments has no affect on salvation. An axe murderer, if he believes that Jesus saves, can still, knowing that, chop babies up with no consequence. This to me denies all foundations of repentance--that when we break a law, we have to do our best to make up for the crime if we expect God to tag in and transitively transcend it to us. Surely, as the adage says, God helps those who helps themselves.

For Christ said "unless a man be born of the water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Unless a man is baptized, he cannot go to heaven. So what, historically, happens to people born in Africa? You either have to

1. disregard the words of Christ by saying He didn't mean it;
2. disregard the love of Christ by saying 90% of people, historically, go to Hell for no reason; or
3. other.

Most modern North American Christians, with a protestant base, choose option A. Many Evangelicals choose B. And perhaps only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) choose C. They believe that those who don't have the opportunity to learn about the Gospel of Jesus Christ during this life will have that opportunity in the next. Because a baptism of water is required of everyone, Mormons allow baptisms on behalf of the dead by a living proxy, which may or may not be accepted by the dead person.

[Colin]

Oh no! This is Colin, and I apparently copied over easond's comment. But he/she referenced Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 & 10:

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

easond then asked how, if "the dead know not any thing," Mormons can argue that the dead can learn the Gospel and choose to accept a baptism done on their behalf. If "there is no work... in the grave," how can there be work for the dead?

[Colin]

Thank you for replying, and thanks especially for responding with a scripture! Welcome to scriptureforum.net.

the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

I think in context this is saying that the dead are not concerned with the secular hoops that defined their lives, nor is their work honored or remembered by those left behind. That is definitely true with the surrounding phrases--if you click that link and read it in context, the chapter is repeatedly saying that people work their butts off, then they randomly die, and at that point their former work must stand on its own, and mostly means nothing. My company is a tool by which I feed my family and the families of the dozen people who work for us--as well as the thousands of customers whose lives is facilitated by having a good product. But if the company didn't accomplish those things, it would be closed--because I know that when I die, or retire, or whatever, the forty years my family worked 10 hours a day no longer mean anything. That's what this chapter is saying. When you're dead you won't be able to run your old grocery store or sell printing or whatever, nor will you receive a portion of the rewards for the work that is done at that company, if it still exists. So work your butt off while you still can, and don't get idolatrous about the perceived "importance" of what you're doing.

To argue that in death people know nothing is to argue that there is no afterlife.

Quite the contrary, after death people have lives, and things to do. I'm not saying there are jobs and economies and whatever, but God would not be so inefficient as to make the purpose of life to create nothingness--creation into nihil. In death your minds are not wiped, but your recollection is made perfect. Your brain is resurrected, meaning you'll be without the inefficient societal scripting and malnutrition that define our existence now. You will either learn, or maybe be zapped with, a new language and knowledge of the way things are done up there. How do you learn your way around Heaven if you can't learn anything in Heaven? No, no, Zombies aren't a Biblical concept.

How can he hold us accountable for something we have never had a chance to learn?

He can't. That's why we will all, in some fashion or other, have the oppportunity to learn what we did right and wrong, and how to transcend that ignorance. To argue otherwise would say that any angel who appears to someone in the scriptures, telling him something unknown about the gospel, learned that thing while he was alive.